I’ve been dealing with a lot of frustration, othering, and hateful comments from people who seem aligned with the transfundamentalist movement, like HBSers and True Transsexuals, and i’m really thinking that perhaps rather than issue walls of invective, maybe what we really need to do is talk.
Like many trans women, i don’t fit the narrow and poorly defined parameters of who qualifies as an HBSer, and this has come with some very specific issues. Because almost all trans-related resources locally are controlled by a support group run by HBSer-identified leadership, there is a great gulf in what happens if you choose not to or cannot fit the HBS framework of who is and isn’t a trans woman. Yes, the Internet offers some workaround, but there’s enough control that people don’t talk and there is often a significant HBSer presence on online fora, too.
I posit that the HBS/True Transsexual mindset is constructed around the idea of “acceptable losses.” This was best evidenced by a commenter on Reddit who once famously opined that “Nobody cares if you die, really nobody cares if an annoying tr**ny doesn’t get hormones because you’re too ugly, stupid, and poor.“ The comment was deleted not soon after, but the poster, a self-identified True Transsexual, had made her point and revealed this agenda of “acceptable losses.”
So, persons of the transfundamentalist bent, i know you read my blog. You leave about six to eight comments a week about how i must be ugly, stupid, a liar, a “transgender” (but you define as a transsexual), and you adore calling me “it” and a “man”. Okay, fine, you’re angry about something, but the problem is that i can’t really tell what that something is. I’ve been told by many that i should just slag HBSers/TTs in general and not even try to engage, but the engagement is already happening. I know you’re reading this, so let’s talk about dialogue.
I know we’re not going to be friends, and i accept that. What i don’t understand is the following short list of things:
- Why can’t we co-exist? There’s plenty of trans women out here in the real world and if we establish common ground we can be stronger. I don’t understand the need to destroy the outlier and dominate spaces…i mean, yeah, i get that that’s human nature, but that’s no excuse. Oppressed groups historically can find common ground. Why can’t we?
- What are you gaining in posting your walls of invective or screaming people out of a support group?
- What does being an HBSer or a True Transsexual mean to you and what delineates the difference between you and i?
- When do you, personally, consider someone to be an “acceptable loss”? Why do you believe this is necessary in trans politics?
What i guess i’m asking is why, since i am expected to tolerate you, can’t your movement tolerate people like, you know, me? I’m just trying to live my life and i don’t understand what the HBSer problem with that is.
the ground rules:
I’ve unbanned all IP addresses banned from commenting in the past, other than IPs that Cathy Brennan has posted from, because, well, Cathy Brennan. I am doing this out of a desire for an open exchange of thoughts and ideas.
Comments are still screened and i reserve the right to decline to unscreen a comment if any of the ground rules aren’t followed:
1. No degendering. This applies to me and everyone else in the conversation, and this includes calling anyone “it” or similar, provided “it” isn’t their preferred pronoun.
2. No racism/misogyny/homophobia/ableism allowed. Sorry, but if there’s some essential difference it shouldn’t spin around sexual orientation or race.
3. When you cite a source, link to the source or cite it completely if it’s not online.
Now…let’s talk. And if you’d rather not comment, or desire a more personal dialogue, i’m willing to listen at inchoaterica (AT) gmail (DOT)com, provided you are willing to abide by the ground rules above. If you’re just going to email to tell me i’m an ugly man…you’ve probably done it 12 times before, i get your assertion.
Now, if only you knew how wrong you were…but maybe that’s for another time.
I don’t think many of them can talk it out. I have found too many trans women are willing to support oppressive lines of thought because of the lack of personal development during their transition. As we become less and less oppressed by future generations those types will hopefully become more uncommon. I totally understand that everyone experience gender differently. However, it’s this “totalitarian” mentality that is the problem, which is why I don’t think so many of them can think critically about. There is a little bit of culture around this, especially when it comes to gender binaries, or the belief that even among trans women that there is only a “binary” set of options one can choose. Those who support that believe that less “definitive” or pure concepts of gender, blur the line too much.
But just as fundamentalist radical feminists like Brennan, these “True Transsexuals” are just as fundamentally wrong about how they define sex and gender as the prior. A man is not the equivalent of an arrangement of genitals (past or present) but a combination of features, very few of which can’t be altered medically. The same is true of women. As the times change, and as we learn more we need to be willing to change definitions in line with that, and in spite of what the radical feminists or the true transsexuals think, neither of them have the right to label themselves as the “default” and judge everyone else accordingly. Male and Female should be designated according to the sum of the traits a person exhibits, and a persons identity needs to be recognized regardless. Certainly, there is no benefit of using over-broad definitions, especially since it renders its use meaningless. However, there are clear and non-arbitrary scientific methods that can be use to make a more correct, and encompassing definitions for gender and sex.
I think that obsessive loyalty to an idea can taint the truth and also render you unable to critically evaluate ideas. That is what they suffer from, and it is unlikely they want to challenge it. It doesn’t come from one being “more true or less true” than other trans people, narratives, or identities, but a failure to transition inwardly while your body transitions outwardly. That is my opinion, that essentially True Transsexuals/HBSers trade one “closed identity” for another, rather than transitioning from a close to an open. To me, being to overly focused on the “outward”, superficial components of transition makes one insecure in their “inward” identity regarding their gender identity, sexuality and beliefs. It can be hard to admit that and play catch up after investing so much into physical transition, while neglecting yourself on a personal level. Their entire identity is hinged on their belief. Perhaps though, some of them will read this and understand. I hope.
I can talk to you if you wish. I have a good general idea of why a lot of your positions would be irritating, however I do not use terms like “it” to describe people. We are clearly different. I would suggest that you remove the link to “trans fundamentalist” which just links to another post you wrote, its a little judgemental and not entirely accurate. Im not aware of people generally using the term HBS to describe themselves so again maybe not a good way to start. Same thing applies to true transsexual which is a HB term that is a little old fashioned.
Answering your questions:
1). You are alive so co-existence is a fact.
2). I dont know why someone else screamed at you.
3). I dont know of anyone who uses the terms you used to self identify, in fact I think it is very rare.
4). The term “acceptable loss” – be more precise or I would have to guess where this comes from.
By “acceptable loss”, i mean “Nobody cares if you die, really nobody cares if an annoying tr**ny doesn’t get hormones because you’re too ugly, stupid, and poor.“ I spent three years off hormones, not really good for your body when you don’t have an endogenous source of sex hormones, and this was the best response the poster could come up with. Co-existence isn’t a fact when one doesn’t have access to basic medical care…and that’s something that there’s a stranglehold on pathways to locally.
I think what that poster was saying was pretty clear. As for using those terms, this might be a regional thing, I don’t really know. I do know the TS-Si people, for example, and i know that….hmm, actually, do you think there’s some possible schism within the HBSers? I’ve also run across the True Transsexuals and the HBSers not getting along, since the difference in opinion is between whether or not someone is a “transsexual”.
But do tell me what is “irritating”, i’m a touch curious. Especially, you know, before i’ve even said anything and i just asked someone to stop calling me “it”. But…how are we so different, anyways? I mean, if i only were straight, able-bodied, and white, i’d fit the HBS paradigm pretty well…
So the gist of your unhappiness boils down to one comment by one person who may or may not be trans? Not an in person face to face confrontation but a comment by some random person on the internet?
You keep talking about being straight able-bodied etc etc, when in fact I dont know the first thing about you. I have no idea if you are feminine looking, masculine looking, white or not or if you are able bodied or not. Im not sure why you think those things matter.
Its unfortunate that you went three years without hormones and going on and off is definetly a bad idea. From what I understand though, you live in the united states so I dont understand this thing about being denied access to medical care. Hormones are freely available if you have the money. They are not expensive either. If you dont have that small amount of money I am sorry but that is the reality of being transsexual all over the world.
Being trans can be a difficult thing for sure. Some do well, many do not do so well. Some overcome tragedy and prosper. Others are crushed by it. Many people who have transitioned help when and where they can. But they have lives, jobs, families to take care of. They are not responsible or obligated to help at all. Most especially as helping can often require people to be out and the vast majority are not. They transition and disappear for all the good reasons you know all too well.
Now if you have something serious to say, something that is not angry or based on assumptions from a few random posters, go ahead and ask.
You know, it might be a good idea to read the previous post where Erica explained why she was denied medical care before you decide she’s lying or stupid:
https://inchoaterica.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/the-trans-community-trans-women-of-color-and-the-you-deserve-it-mentality/
“Hormones are freely available if you have the money”.
Yes, but you need a doctor willing to write the prescription. To find such a doctor, you need to know who’s safe. When you don’t have access to that because it’s controlled by a support group that doesn’t share that information with “outsiders”, you see the problem here. I’ve been through my experiences with the support group, the getting called “it” part, etc…and don’t really care to repeat it…again.
“…something that is not angry”
Well, i think what i said was a pretty strong olive branch, and the thing about olive branches is that when supported from both sides, they’re damn tenuous. When supported from one, everyone falls off.
“they transition and disappear”
Yeah, that worked for me for a very long time. The trouble is that’s conditional privilege. If i never need to see a doctor, i’m fine…i do have the privilege of all my documentation being right, for example. But at the end of the day, i can’t get medical care that respects who and what i am, and yes, trans women as we age do have unique health needs, probably from being on an assload of synthetic estrogen for most of our lives, and not having access to that is Deeply Problematic. There is that whole having to lie to a doctor to get basic non-trans-related care, but i’ve discussed this at length, too, and there’s no good solution.
If that makes me “angry”, so be it. Anger is a human emotion, and throwing the tone argument card this early on seems to imply to me that you can’t hold up any of your points without resorting to the things in the ground rules.
You’ve still failed to show what is so essentially different between you and i. We’re both women, we’re both trans, etc…what is this essential difference? Because i don’t see it, and i think maybe the uncomfortable reality that we’re basically the same thing is setting in for you.
I’ve grabbed my popcorn. I’ll be following this.
Its not physical differences that define the difference between us. I had to read your latest post a few times before I could begin to comprehend what it is that you are unhappy about. Most of us just want to transition and let go of our past. In fact, for many it is the whole point. It is for me . I dont want anything to do with a trans community, I simply wish to live as and be identifed as a female. I have that now and it is important to me. I dont want to live forever with the label trans on my forehead. Your life would be very isolating to me.
In my world I would characterise you as stuck in transition. For me, for most, the whole point of transition is to live and experience life as fully female as possible. By definition that means you have to let go of the past and absolutely walk away from any self assumed trans identity. For me, any other choice would have meant living in purgatory forever.
However, you have the right to live as you choose. You are entitled to your feelings and the verbal abuse you have taken is wrong. I do understand the visceral reaction your opinions create in others, but I do not support it. Just remember, you have very different ideas than many and for those any association with you threatens the lives they have worked so hard to build.
If I had been one of those people in your support group I likely would not have helped you either if I was aware of your views. Not because I would hate you, I would not have been rude, I simply would have ignored you and distanced myself as far away from you as possible. Which is what I am going to do now. Take much care.
Amber: How does “liv[ing] and experienc[ing] life as fully female as possible” help when most doctors won’t treat you because of your body’s transsexual history? Or are you just going to tell Erica that if she was prettier, she could get her medication?
You would have to explain this comment a little more. I dont know how Erica looks, I have never met her. Exactly what treatment was she refused, by what doctor and under what circumstances? In her latest post she describes herself as being attractive and feminine so im not sure I understand.
Did you read https://inchoaterica.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/the-trans-community-trans-women-of-color-and-the-you-deserve-it-mentality/ — the post that I linked you to where she explained exactly why she was refused HRT?
In case clicking on a link is too much effort:
I have no idea why you are so snippy. I have never done anything bad to erica, in fact i have never said anything bad about her. I did read the link but had forgotten. She could have gotten hormones from the one doctor, but her stated reason is that she was overweight. No responsible doctor will prescribe estrogen if you are considerably overweight. You could easily die. Thats how it is. As for the listing of male on the paperwork well, not right but I would happily do that to get my hormones, in fact I have. So far as being hetero, again very old fashioned, but everyone knows this can be an issue so just lie about it. Big deal. I must say that these are excuses not reasons. Sorry.
I do not support the system, its wrong, its unfair and its transphobic. But if you really want your medication you do what you have to. If you cant even bend the facts a little to get medication you desperately need then they arent that important. Its her choice. I find this quite ironic, she ordered hormones off the internet which is dangerous and illegal but had no problem with that and only stopped because several packages got intercepted.
As I said, I understand why she has no sense of community, her thinking is quite different from most trans (women at least) and so they feel nothing in common with her. I dont feel at all sorry for her many have had bad experiences, myself included.
Amber, you have engaged in transphobia within your comments yourself. Additionally, you shouldn’t have to lie about your sexual orientation to get medical care, you shouldn’t have to validate your need for hormones to a doctor through superficial expressions, and that is the exact bullshite the people like Erica are speaking out against. Your rights should not hinge on your sexual orientation, gender identity/expression or otherwise. I think you’ve deeply misunderstood the issue or how important those things are for trans people to have accessibility to, or how important hormones are for the normalization of mood and other such things. Erica’s need for hormones and proper medical care isn’t on whether or not she’ll conceal her identity, expression or orientation. Because the problem you are forgetting is the fact that the current paradigm basically means that you have “no recourse” against doctors playing “gatekeeper” with your medical care. You are also forgetting that there were resources that could have given Erica the means to see a doctor who would take her needs seriously and sensitively, but HBS supporters and True Transsexual group leaders “decided she didn’t need them” because her position didn’t agree with theirs.
No sense of community? I think you missed the fundamental problem entirely by making assumptions not based on the position presented here. I have butt up against this many, many times myself with those types, who constantly dole out “passing” tips, try to police others gender and orientation and judge others via stereotypical cultural sexist dogma while ignoring the fact that trans people come in all shapes and sizes. It’s the position of privilege of heteronormative, cisnormative trans people (women especially) within the “trans community” that are largely responsible for this mentality (not to mention that ‘Trans Separatism’ is largely a symptom of cultural trans/homophobia). This bias regionally within the transsexual communities makes life hostile for queer/non-binary trans people, inhibits access to necessary transition and trans specific resources, and that polices the genders of non-binary, queer, or non-gender conformative trans people. You don’t experience that because you are part of that “privilege” group within the trans community, and you are seemingly unwilling to assess that. Furthermore, how Erica “looks” has no bearing on the matter at hand.
Obsession with looks and passing (looking cisnormative) is also another problem when dealing with HBS and True Transsexuals. How Erica looks should never be reason to discriminate against her, either for the color of her skin, who she sleeps with or how she dresses. It’s oppressive to think that the burden of what Erica went through resides on her because she didn’t or couldn’t dance to the “Gatekeeper Tune” when seeking medical care, or because she resorted to trying to circumvent the system to get care out of desperation, or whatever drove her to that point. It’s called victim blaming and it’s misogynistic, transphobic, and sexist in this instance. If one must lie, and conceal themselves to be treated equally then it’s not equality, period. Under said system the problem lies with the system not with the trans people who suffer under it. You’d do well to remember that and take those things into consideration before making judgements. However, all considering, you have been much more willing to listen, and less abusive than others of the ideology from which (for this discourse) you hail.
However, a point that should be clear, is that you should go further and do more to critically analyze the problem, and further draw yourself out of that mentality. This discourse will hopefully be able to point out to you where privilege lies, but you must choose to do something about it or you remain part of the problem.
One very long post that is hard to follow.
Im not sure if you understand that I am a trans woman. I work with trans people. So i do have some understanding of the kinds of issues and feelings people like erica and myself have.
I am repeating myself here. I have no idea how Erica looks. I still dont know what skin color she is and in fact I find it amusing that their is an assumption that it has any meaning to me at all. All I know are the things she says about herself and they seem a little contradictory. Trans women come in all shapes, sizes and orientations though. Some are beautiful and like every other woman, some are not. Some transsexuals equate beauty with passing, I am not of those. I do feel there is real value in passing but likely not for the reasons you might think. I can also say, with certaintly that every single trans woman can pass, that it is within reach. If someone doesnt want to, well fine, no problem to me.
I also said in my post that I dont support the things that happened to erica, In fact I dont support the gatekeeping role of doctors period. Hormones should be available, like all drugs over the counter without presciption. ALL DRUGS. No one tells me what I can or cant put in my body.
It is obviously wrong to have to lie. I dont support it. But telling small lies in order to get your hormones is the way things are right now. The hormones are most important and I think it is a mistake not to get them. That can make you very sick, as in dead and no one is much of an advocate from the grave.
I do listen, but the assumptions being made about me are a bit much, you read far too much into my comments and for some reason keep forcing an identity on me (hBS’r true transsexual whatever) that I do not associate with.
You even used a few words I have never heard of so perhaps you might remember that I do not identify as trans IRL, I do not socialize with trans people and I live a fairly private life. I feel no responsibility to take up any cause and its oppressive for you to suggest I do so. Im enititled to a normal quiet life and that is more or less what I have. Freedom includes freedom of choice and I made mine some time ago.
Oh yes, I know what victim blaming is. That is stretching my accusation of poor judgement and incorrect priorities a bit far.
My working theory is that HBSers and True Transsexuals are angry because of abuse that they’ve been subjected to by medical gatekeepers and others, but that they’ve internalized the attitudes behind that abuse. I’m not sure of this, but it seems to fit their statements better than anything else.
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